Alright, so nobody's taken me up on the debate challenge post, so I've left a link on the sidebar to it. I await a challenger. Nachum apparently felt that the post displayed an overconfidence which my age made impossible to justify: "You're what, 22? It's good to know you've got it all figured out." All I'm trying to point out is that it is unfair for people to characterize my views based on naive teenagers or wide-eyed individuals who think the rabbis at Discovery Seminars did their homework on the other side's viewpoints. How about we have a format where each side gets a fair shake? Why isn't that okay?
Moving right along...
I was curious and wanted to ask readers something:
Christopher Hitchens has cancer. He's probably dying. By the way, he's halakhically Jewish. So my questions follow: If you knew the above facts about Hitchens, have you been davening for him? If you didn't, will you now daven for him? If not, why not?
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Wow, I must really have hit a nerve there.
ReplyDeleteI do have to chuckle- I remember R' Aharon Kahn once pointing out that atheists talk and think about God much more than anyone else. Which is a good thing even for the believers, as it happens.
Hitchens? I hope he recovers, but I generally don't pray for people I don't know. The people who submit huge lists of names at every misheberach are a bit ridiculous.
No, I don't take offense, I just thought your comment was a good launching off point for explaining that all I'm trying to do is explain my viewpoint without having it characterized falsely and that is somehow seen as me claiming to know everything. I thought readers might find my perspective of interest.
ReplyDeleteAs for my interest in god, I'm a Jewish Studies major, nu.
1) I agree with Nachum. Praying for the ill should be reserved for someone one feels a connection with.
ReplyDelete2) Hitchens is so out of touch with his Judaism that he has spent his life raging against the Chrisianity he thinks he's a part of. I'm pretty sure he doesn't qualify for a mishberach.
3) As some of us pointed out, it's not that we're ignoring your challenge. We don't see a point to it. It will accomplish nothing except creating a lot of bad feelings which is exactly what we're not supposed to do at this time of year.
"Explaining your viewpoint" is something you're free to do anytime. Challenging to a debate, particularly against some big name, implies that you think you're the person to settle the matter once and for all. And I hate to break it to you, but you're not. Reading your blog, you've barely decided what your view *is*, if at all. And there's no way you know as much as people who've been studying these things- on either side- for many more years.
ReplyDeleteI personally have always had a hard time having kevanah on anything outside of the words I was saying. Sometimes I would have moments where I felt connected with G-d or all yiden but that usually is the exception rather than the rule. For example when people say "have XYZ in mind when you say kiddush/hamotzi/havdalah/etc" I usually acknowledge that I would and then simply say the Brachah. I have no conception of how a person has someone in mind when saying a brachah with as much intent as possible which usually means that I pronounce the words correctly and sometimes think about the literal meaning. It just doesn't fit in my thinking process on how to have someone in mind for a brachah.
ReplyDeleteOn the same note I couldn't really pray for anyone with set prayers. The only exception being including someones name in a mishaberach. That would be the only time really. When I daven I do what is required and have a hard time coming up with my "own prayers".
I may say a mishaberach for him (anyone know his and his mothers Hebrew name)since I love his work and agree with him on alot of what he says. I would do it because it shows to myself that I care for his well being and would like to continue reading/listening to his work for decades to come. Even if it does no good, it makes me feel good. Also it is probably a good idea to donate towards cancer research, anyone know of a reputable charity to donate to for this?
-Daniel
School's back in session guys, but hopefully I'll have time to address the rest later.
ReplyDeleteDaniel:
https://www.standup2cancer.org/Default.aspx . Christopher doesn't have a hebrew name and I doubt it would be easy to find out his mother's (if she had one).
Baruch,
ReplyDeleteI am still uncertain of what you actually want to debate. Here is an idea, since you have not gotten anyone who will enter into a debate with you about whatever: write your ideas on the blog and then comments will be posted on it.
Nachum,
ReplyDeleteThink we've made our respective positions clear, we'll agree to disagree.
Garnel,
RE 2: That's interesting. How's he not qualify for a misheberach.
RE 3: I hear, but I disagree that it would cause bad feelings. We're all gonna throw our opinions out there anyways, this would be more of a direct dialogue. Look, E-man and I had a pretty heated (in terms of disagreement) discussion, but I don't think we're any less friends for it.
Daniel,
I appreciate your input.
E-man,
Depends on who the partner is. But how's about the Torah and Oral Tradition being given to Moshe at Sinai? You game?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGarnel,
ReplyDeleteNm about the email, it was something more of interest before Rosh Hashana. Sorry.
Baruch, I am not sure what you would sya that would convince me or what I would say that would convince you. As for Hitchens and praying for him, I will tell you a Rambam that gives a parable.
ReplyDeleteThe Rambam says that if you do not believe in olam haba (the world to come) you can't enter it. This is because he holds the only thing that enters olam haba is your intellect (whatever that means) and if your intellect rejects this then it can not connect to olam haba and therefore can not enter it.
I would assume the same idea holds true for prayer. If you don;t believe in the power of prayer then it will not work for you. So, what is the point in praying for someone who does not believe in the effectiveness of prayer?
This all makes sense in a spiritual world kinda way, I promise.
Smart, E-man. I agree with you and Rambam experts I know seem to think Reb Chaim's "nebuch an apikorus is still an apikorus" is closer to Rambam's opinion than the "tinok shenishba" idea as espoused by (among many others) Reb Moshe. Hence, a nebuch apikorus won't get into heaven. Sucks to be him. But do you really follow Reb Chaim on that and not Reb Moshe?
ReplyDelete"This all makes sense in a spiritual world kinda way, I promise."
I don't doubt it :)
Hitchens definitely deserves a prayer, not necessarily for being a Jew, but for his commitment to the best aspects of his profession as a journalist.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I also wouldn't daven for him, because I don't feel personally connected to him other than as an admirer.
He does turn people away from God, and he is a nasty sumbitch at times, but he makes people think, and he's a passionate, compassionate man.
His illness is a terrible tragedy, but maybe people will take notice, and instead of crying "God will smite you if you hate Him!" they will cry "Please don't smoke; it causes good people to die of cancer!"
By the way, Hitchens holds a Passover Seder every year in his home, to celebrate freedom from tyranny.
So does President Obama.
And God, if your'e listening, we could use a lot more Yiddishe Kops like Hitchens. Silence him, if he should be silenced, take him from us if you must, but in the spirit of "All Israel are fit to sit under a single sukkah," we beseech you to heal him speedily, body and soul. Amen
"Personally, I also wouldn't daven for him, because I don't feel personally connected to him other than as an admirer."
ReplyDelete"And God, if your'e listening, we could use a lot more Yiddishe Kops like Hitchens. Silence him, if he should be silenced, take him from us if you must, but in the spirit of "All Israel are fit to sit under a single sukkah," we beseech you to heal him speedily, body and soul. Amen "
You just contradicted yourself. You prayed for him.
E-man, you didn't answer my question :(
ReplyDelete