Thursday, November 24, 2011
Debate/Discussion with Benzion Chinn 1
After making this video, I changed my mind about posting the refutation of the Kuzari Principle on the sidebar. I'll put it here. On a future school break when I have more time, I plan to write my own refutation of the Kuzari argument propounded in Living Up to the Truth for a specifically believing audience and put it on the sidebar instead. Also, after making this video, I saw this post by the heilege Skeptitcher Rebbe on how Jewish leaders rely on maintaining their congregations' ignorance, and thought it was relevant to our discussion here on indoctrination of children into Orthodox Judaism. Sorry also for the bad lighting..
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Great intro. I think I agree with most (maybe all) of what you said.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the nod to my post as well, much appreciated.
Thank you for the first video. I will try to come around with my response as soon as possible. Let us hope that Thanksgiving travel does not cause too much of a delay.
ReplyDeleteOne thing to consider is that the primary purpose of Torah is not to tell people what to think about the natural world but to provide basis for spiritual and ethical instruction. Too often this requires Jews to establish historical events as fact, such as the Exodus, Sinai, and accurate transmission of Mesorah, and I agree that inevitably this produces a problem. However, the problem should be solved with engagement. Offer the child your beliefs and your basis for them, without restricting the child's ability to question and investigate for himself. But this should not stop parents from imbuing children with their values.
ReplyDeleteNow, of course one need not be an Orthodox Jew to do so, but Orthodox Jews have their values and the beliefs which provide a basis for them, including Jewish narratives of history and heritage. Nothing is wrong with presenting these views to a child, so long as the parent believes them and does not deny the child space to assess those beliefs as they mature into thinking young adults. Child-rearing and child education is and always will be a form of indoctrination, and so long as children are taught skepticism when they are ready for it, this need not concern us too much.
Children in grade school are not taught to challenge accepted narratives of history or science, and are only actively encouraged to do so once they demonstrate curiosity and skeptical thinking. Even then, they must be engaged according to their level of understanding and readiness.
See also:
http://www.chiefrabbi.org/ReadArtical.aspx?id=884
Oh, also take a look at this book by a liberal, predominantly secular Jew:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Hate-Discontent-Millennium/dp/0307406628
We had this discussion so you know this already, but I'll just put it up here to make it available to the rest of society, and specifically as a response to the Skeptitcher: my experience simply has not born that out. I have never felt, and do not feel, that any rabbi has ever taken for granted that I wouldn't be aware of something. I can't think of a single instance of a rabbi misrepresenting something where I did not attribute the misrepresentation to his own skewed thinking as a result of his worldview. I've yet to experience a situation where a rabbi who "knows better" does any misrepresenting. I think both of you are underestimating the degree to which these people (and plenty of others too) let their bias completely change the way ideas present themselves to them. Either that, or I just haven't hung out with enough yeshivish types.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing: I'm seeing more and more things on the interwebs focusing on this phenomenon and others like it - the prevalence of the idea that, when it comes to inquiry, the truth is far less important than the outcome in terms of emuna, shemirat Halakha, etc. I find it particularly interesting because Marc Shapiro is due to come out with a book examining exactly this in a historical context some time this year. When he does, I think it will be VERY interesting to see the reaction on both sides (and of course, the usual people won't read the book and will yell at it for claiming that Jews don't think there's any such thing as objective truth, same way they didn't read the book on the Ikkarim and yelled at him for claiming that Jews don't need to believe anything.) But what I really want to know is: will he explore the philosophical literature that gives rise to just such an idea? Will he discuss James or Dewey? If not, he's being unfair to his targets. Similarly, I think if you guys want to understand these people - and I don't think it will make you agree with them, but you will understand them - you should probably check out some of the pragmatists and more recent "neo-pragmatists."
Daniel and I shmoozed about this on facebook, but for the kehilla: i for one am not saying the misrepresentation is always deliberate. It's a mesorah. But they don't want people reading certain things, that's all. And in my experience, those are the good things. Also, there are rabbis who misrepresent on purpose, and some have talked to me about this (can't have kids being open-minded, the frumkeit will fall out); and as I told Daniel, I know of at least one rabbi who tried to misrepresent in order to mislead readers such as him.
ReplyDeleteRight on target, Baruch.
ReplyDelete>But what I really want to know is: will he explore the philosophical literature that gives rise to just such an idea? Will he discuss James or Dewey?
ReplyDeleteI hope not. That's not his field of expertise. I hope it's an encyclopedic sourcebook, and the reader can draw whichever conclusion and put it into whatever context they like. No need to waste space on Dewey.
Thank you for your reference to my posts on Kuzari, and kudos on your own work.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the positive feedback, all! And thanks for reading, Reb Larry!
ReplyDeletebaruch shilta how are u? long time no speak.....a old friend from touro college south....
ReplyDeleteKiruv is not based on logic its a spiritual contact to the godly soul... We all like to be connected to god in a different way and approaches. Shmoozing with an open minded educated chabad friendly rabbi will help you out...
Dovid
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